International Arbitration: The Importance of a Governing Law

Principal Attorney of the Campbell Law Group, Regina Campbell, discusses International Arbitration & Litigation: The Importance of a Governing Law & Venue Clause with Guest Speaker James Claxton.

James Claxton, Professor of Law at Rikkyo University in Tokyo, is an active independent arbitrator and mediator specializing in commercial and investment disputes. His extended experience in international arbitration would be insightful to our audience.

The Campbell Law Group P.A. while representing clients whether in civil, corporate, commercial, employment, or family law matters, our company’s primary goal is first to help clients minimize the need for unnecessary litigation and conflict where possible.

Contact us by calling our office at (305) 460-0145 or emailing us at service@thecampbelllawgroup.com.

Transcript

0:06

[Music]

0:13

hi good afternoon everybody I want to

0:15

welcome everyone back to the episode

0:17

three of season two the legal zone I’m

0:20

your host Regina Campbell

0:22

and I have the pleasure today to bring

0:24

our second part of three-part series

0:26

regarding international arbitration and

0:28

litigation on the importance of

0:30

governing law clauses

0:32

I also have the pleasure we'll take a

0:34

step back for a moment last if you

0:36

recall the first part we had Mr.

0:38

George Bermann on the line so to speak

0:41

that talked to us a little bit about um

0:43

and gave us pointers and tips to take

0:45

into consideration when entering into an

0:47

international business transaction

0:49

an agreement as well as the importance

0:51

of understanding the legal issues that

0:53

one should consider when drafting a

0:55

governing law and venue clause so

0:58

we're hoping today to bring you a second

1:00

expert and you can see him on the line

1:02

I’m going to introduce him because he has

1:03

an amazing background and I think it'll

1:05

lend itself to understand information

1:09

and the tips he's giving us the

1:10

importance of it and the rarity of it to

1:12

help us practitioners and business

1:13

people alike

1:15

our guest today is James Claxton he

1:17

graduated from Tulane university law

1:19

school he has an LLM an international

1:22

business law from the London school of

1:24

economics and political science

1:26

he's an accredited by leading

1:28

arbitration and mediation institutions

1:30

in Asia

1:31

and he specializes in commercial and

1:32

investment disputes under civil and

1:35

common law

1:36

as well as investment treaties arising

1:38

particularly from commercial

1:39

communications construction

1:42

engineer investments intellectual

1:43

property and transportation services

1:46

Mr. Claxton is also a full-time academic

1:49

in Japan outside of his practice he is a

1:51

professor of law with Seda

1:58

and a member of the adjunct faculty of

2:01

white and case international arbitration

2:03

LLM at the university of Miami

2:05

welcome Mr. Claxton and thank you for being

2:07

our back guest today

2:08

it is a great pleasure and i commend you

2:11

on this initiative your range is

2:13

really extraordinary in the types of

2:15

legal issues that you're taking on so

2:17

congratulations this is a great project

2:20

thank you thank you it's and it's 

2:21

we're going to be being in Miami it's

2:23

becoming so much more of an

2:24

international hub and i think it's so

2:26

important for us to understand

2:28

not just as attorneys but to help our

2:30

clients our clients understand the

2:32

importance of contracts what goes into

2:34

these decisions making decisions to go

2:36

abroad

2:37

and conduct business what's involved in

2:39

it what can you do to help yourself

2:41

because it is becoming more and more a

2:43

globalized economy and world so to speak

2:46

so

2:47

so I want to so the first question I

2:49

want to ask you and this caught my

2:50

attention was investment disputes

2:53

brought under inter um

2:55

investment treaties that sound very

2:57

interesting

2:58

can you tell us

2:59

what are the various treaties that you

3:02

have experience investment treaties you

3:03

have experience with

3:05

sure, just sort of as background there

3:08

are around 3 000

3:10

treaties

3:11

bilateral investment treaties

3:14

with states on both sides the intention

3:16

of those treaties is to promote

3:18

investment then there are around 500

3:21

additional treaties that have investor

3:23

protections built into them they're not

3:25

specifically, investment treaties but

3:27

they have these investment protections

3:30

and so, I worked as an attorney on 

3:33

cases involving these kinds of

3:34

investment treaties working for

3:36

parties either for states or for

3:38

investors and I also worked for an

3:40

institution in Washington called the

3:42

international center for settlement of

3:44

investment disputes and there is

3:47

basically, assisted tribunals arbitral

3:49

tribunals who were working on these

3:52

investment cases and so I’ve had

3:55

experience with about 10 different

3:57

investment treaties most of them

3:59

involving parties in Europe Asia and

4:03

Africa and also had I also had

4:05

experience on something called the

4:07

energy charter treaty which is a very

4:09

specific investment treaty in the in the

4:12

energy sector that has I think around um

4:15

50 state parties so those are a couple

4:18

of the of the different instruments that

4:19

have that I’ve worked on maybe just a

4:23

quick word I’m sure you have a very

4:24

sophisticated

4:26

audience of listeners but a quick word

4:28

about investment treaties and what makes

4:30

them

4:31

unique because they are kind of special

4:33

so, as I mentioned the investment

4:36

treaties are meant to promote investment

4:38

the early treaties were really aimed

4:40

at driving capital from the

4:43

comparatively capital

4:46

rich part of the world toward the

4:47

developing

4:48

world

4:49

now the investment treaties don't

4:51

necessarily target that dynamic there

4:54

are plenty of treaties between ums

4:56

on-balance capital importing countries

4:59

and on balanced capital exporting

5:00

countries

5:01

but the treaties are special in the

5:04

sense that they really, they, the

5:06

obligations flow in one direction it's

5:08

basically, a series of commitments made

5:10

by states that intends to encourage

5:14

investment into the state something

5:17

else kind of interesting about the

5:18

treaties are they provide the possibility

5:21

for

5:23

directly between an investor and a state

5:26

so although the parties to the treaty

5:29

obviously are states or countries

5:32

 they do provide the possibility of

5:34

arbitration proceedings directly from a

5:36

private investor against the state

5:40

and is that to encourage investors to

5:42

want to come in so they have an idea of

5:43

what to expect or some of their game is

5:46

that what that's for

5:48

that's exactly right yeah exactly it's

5:50

really about legal certainty if there

5:52

weren't the possibility of arbitration

5:55

then the investor may be discouraged

5:57

because the best option might be either

5:59

bringing a case directly against the

6:01

state and its home courts

6:03

or trying to rely on some sort of

6:05

diplomatic protection involving his home

6:08

state in putting pressure on the state

6:09

to make amends where there's been damage

6:11

to an investment so it's really, you're

6:13

exactly right Regina it's really about

6:16

certainty and

6:17

minimizing risk in the eyes of the

6:19

investor to try and encourage the

6:21

investment

6:22

that makes make sense and I assume

6:24

it's been fairly successful with certain

6:26

countries that have

6:28

more I guess structuralized or

6:30

structured or certainty in these

6:32

treaties because the investors are more

6:34

likely to come in so that makes sense

6:36

correct

6:38

great yeah and we can we can come

6:40

on to the certainty point which is a

6:41

really interesting point maybe

6:44

one one other feature of investment

6:47

treaties that's not common it's not

6:48

specific to treaties but that is

6:50

certainly, an issue in treaties is about

6:52

legal certainty and the nature of the

6:55

commitments made by states in the

6:57

treaties are often quite vague

6:59

so, for example treaties will frequently

7:01

provide that the investors will be

7:03

treated fairly and equitably and so you

7:06

might you ask the question what

7:08

does that mean

7:09

fairly and equitably and many

7:11

tribunals have dealt with this question

7:12

what exactly is meant when a treaty

7:15

says fair so although they are meant to

7:17

promote legal certainty the nature of

7:20

the commitments in the treaties does

7:22

give rise to some interpretive questions

7:25

okay and

7:26

do these treaties usually announce which

7:28

arbitration organization will hear that

7:30

hear the dispute do they try to limit in

7:33

that way or structure procedural or

7:35

substantive sort of application of law

7:37

within those arbitration organizations

7:39

for these treaties yeah great so Regina

7:41

I think here here we have to talk about

7:43

the international center for settlement

7:44

of investment disputes because most

7:47

investment cases are brought under the

7:49

auspices of that center that center is

7:52

an organ of the world bank

7:55

and it has some really unique features

7:57

that we can talk more about but

7:59

one of the features is that it is

8:02

entirely delocalized

8:04

meaning that you know when you think

8:06

about arbitration you think about a

8:08

place of arbitration a seat of

8:10

arbitration extended proceedings most

8:13

exit proceedings do not have a seat of

8:16

arbitration

8:18

so that's just to point out that that

8:20

this is a very particular system the

8:22

exit system and it has certain

8:24

advantages that are very attractive to

8:27

investors one main one

8:29

being that enforcement of the award

8:33

should be easy

8:34

under the ixid system it's not

8:37

always easy but at least at least in the

8:40

in the exit convention the enforcement

8:42

of awards is direct there is no basis

8:45

for resisting enforcement, the way that

8:47

there would be under for example the new

8:49

York convention so that's excited and I

8:52

bring up exit because your question was

8:53

about what options investors will have

8:56

in most investment treaties exid is one

8:59

of the options that's available

9:01

and then typically there are other

9:03

options available some investment

9:05

treaties will

9:06

specifically identify institutions and

9:09

others will simply leave it too the

9:11

investors and the states to choose an

9:13

institution once a dispute arises

9:16

okay so it seems like 

9:19

that would seem attractive to be able to

9:22

I mean the New York convention of course

9:23

has quite a bit of protection and some

9:25

certainty but as we were talking to Mr.

9:26

Bermann in the in part one it's still

9:29

subject to certain attacks on bias

9:31

certain ways that arbitration provisions

9:33

can be

9:35

attacked by a country

9:36

so it seemed to be more attractive to

9:39

have

9:40

bring something under sick right

9:43

yeah, exactly i think i think the

9:46

the the enforcement is one of the

9:48

reasons why parties have the choice in

9:50

the treaty they often will choose this

9:52

type of arbitration exit has other

9:56

advantages the fact that it's part of

9:58

the world bank just may suggest a level

10:01

of formality that is attractive 

10:05

there are also interesting

10:07

aspects in terms of the process the

10:10

the

10:11

pricing is different than other

10:13

arbitration so there are a whole variety

10:16

of advantages to exit proceedings and so

10:19

if it's possible it's not always

10:21

possible but if the jurisdictional

10:23

requirements can be met

10:25

investors will often choose

10:27

exit proceedings over other options in

10:29

the treaties

10:31

so that kind of answers some of my other

10:33

questions that I had about so not

10:35

only just what are the differences

10:36

between the treaties and I guess we

10:38

can't get into all three thousand of

10:39

them right now

10:41

but also you know do you have the

10:44

choice to arbitrate or choose you

10:46

know governing the law or

10:49

other kind of you have the same freedom

10:51

these types of contracts that deal with

10:53

investment treaties

10:54

that you normally do under sort of the

10:56

typical western type contracts that

10:58

allow for quite a bit of contracting and

11:00

freedom to contract

11:01

right so I think the first

11:04

thing is to go back to exid so if

11:08

if the interest is whether or not the

11:10

investor can choose the place of

11:13

arbitration

11:14

if they choose exit proceedings this

11:16

particular type of proceeding we've been

11:18

talking about then there really is no no

11:20

place of arbitration it's entirely

11:23

delocalized it's an entirely

11:24

self-contained system and to be a little

11:27

bit more concrete about that so normally

11:29

if if

11:31

parties to a contract commercial

11:33

contract was selecting a seat they'd be

11:35

thinking about things like um

11:38

how

11:39

to what extent will the court

11:41

help if there's a need for help from the

11:43

courts in the arbitration for example if

11:47

one of the parties if the respondent

11:49

fails to appoint an arbitrator

11:52

can can the investor or can the

11:55

claimant or the plaintiff go to the

11:57

courts and ask the courts for help

11:59

so that's one of the ways that 

12:01

that court involvement is important that

12:04

is not part of the exit system there is

12:07

no

12:07

there's not a system

12:10

the parties can can go to  so

12:13

at least when talking about the exit

12:15

system the choice of seat is irrelevant

12:17

because there is no there is no formal

12:19

seat there's no place that parties can

12:21

go during the arbitration process for

12:23

assistance the other reason that seat is

12:26

important that I think you talked about

12:27

with professor Bermann and what an

12:29

honor to follow Professor Bermann

12:32

but that also is where the parties will

12:34

go if they want to try and challenge an

12:37

award in commercial arbitration

12:39

proceedings so on limited grounds if

12:42

a party is unhappy with the result of an

12:45

arbitration they can go to the courts at

12:47

the place of arbitration and they can

12:49

raise certain arguments to have the

12:50

award annulled in the exit system that's

12:53

not possible there's a

12:55

self-contained annulment process that

12:58

the

12:59

parties will go through if there is a

13:01

challenge to the award that's entirely

13:03

independent of domestic warts

13:06

okay

13:08

amazing I I do but do most do most

13:10

other I guess for the treaties we

13:12

were talking about the treaties

13:13

particularly you can choose what

13:16

arbitration seat I guess to some extent

13:17

right

13:18

if you choose another arbitration seat

13:21

do you see or another organization do

13:24

does basically the treaty itself 

13:28

control or minimize the different seats

13:30

or the law the governing law within each

13:33

internet I guess investment treaty

13:35

itself

13:36

right because I know you can

13:37

sometimes choose your own arbitration

13:39

seat but does it have any what other

13:40

type of restrictions do they have

13:42

okay great so um

13:44

I guess one very basic point to make is

13:47

that of course the treaties will be

13:49

negotiated and decided by states so the

13:51

investors won't have any input on these

13:54

types of decisions at least on the on

13:56

the front end and so normally the law

13:59

that applies will be the treaty itself

14:01

which is international law in addition

14:03

to general international law

14:06

and then there may also be a provision

14:08

in the treaty that provides for

14:11

the application of domestic law in

14:13

particular circumstances

14:15

so, for example the laws of the host

14:17

state the state hosting the investment

14:20

might be relevant to the conditions for

14:22

having legal investment and so in that

14:25

case the host state law would also be an

14:28

applicable law under the treaty

14:30

and then in terms of the place of

14:32

arbitration if we're not talking about

14:34

the delocalized exit system the treaties

14:37

don't tend to specify a place of

14:39

arbitration in other arbitration

14:41

proceedings we simply leave it to the

14:43

parties once the dispute arises to

14:46

choose a seat at that point

14:48

okay so the party's still maintained

14:50

within the parameters of the treaty of

14:52

the treaty some freedom of

14:54

contracting it sounds like some

14:56

ability I’m sure there's still

14:57

conditions particularly with a country

14:59

and how much investment in the

15:01

limitations of ownership and things of

15:03

that nature but at least it sounds like

15:05

there's some room for picking governing

15:08

 you know governing law and

15:09

potentially venue clauses within the

15:11

treaty

15:14

yeah indeed

15:15

certainly

15:16

certainly, venue could be something

15:18

that the party could negotiate once

15:21

the dispute arose again unless we're

15:24

talking about this very specific exit

15:26

system

15:27

right okay very interesting it's

15:29

not something I don't really hear about

15:30

so I was very excited to understand that

15:33

and you know you don't have

15:34

experience in there you don't understand

15:36

you're not seeing it sort of in the

15:37

circumstances and the surroundings to

15:39

get

15:40

to feel that as a lawyer to understand

15:42

those limitations and

15:43

definitely need to lean on someone like

15:45

you that has the experience to what

15:47

is this really like what's the practical

15:49

reality of getting involved potentially

15:51

investing in other countries

15:53

and what does this look like

15:55

so also, I want to ask you so what is

15:57

also the we also wanted to talk about

15:59

what kind of commercial cases do you

16:01

arbitrate or mediate as well

16:04

good

16:05

so personally when I was in

16:07

practice I practiced in paris for about

16:09

six years I had a general commercial

16:12

practice

16:13

dealing with a whole host of different

16:16

issues some ip issues I had

16:18

some construction disputes the last

16:20

dispute I had was over the manufacture

16:22

of a yacht I had a big construction

16:25

dispute involving a south African state

16:28

entity or sorry a north African state

16:30

entity

16:31

so I had a general commercial practice

16:34

these days I work as arbitrator and

16:36

mediator I don't do a whole lot of work

16:38

directly for clients I do some

16:40

consulting but not a lot of direct

16:42

client work and  there also it's

16:45

general commercial the last 

16:47

two cases that I had as arbitrator one

16:50

involved a licensing agreement a

16:52

agreement for a sports  figure and

16:55

then I had a another case involving a

16:58

technology dispute so it's kind of I

17:00

have kind of a general a general 

17:02

background and mediation's pretty much

17:04

the same

17:06

very much oriented in  toward

17:08

commercial disputes

17:10

okay and so any tips you have um

17:13

whether you're practicing your practices

17:14

being a lawyer or an arbitrator I mean

17:16

obviously an arbitrator can't as an

17:17

advocate continues to be an advocate as

17:19

well  but or a mediator when you see

17:21

you've probably seen cases where okay

17:23

this could have been more clear in a

17:24

contract or these are some of the things

17:26

that

17:27

 maybe to stay on topic with the with

17:30

the podcast today something like a

17:31

governing law provision became more

17:33

complicated because of the way it was

17:35

either written or what law it defers to

17:38

when there was uncertainty in those laws

17:40

or

17:40

anything of the nature you can kind of

17:41

give us tips on because we always hear

17:43

some horror stories 

17:46

right

17:47

maybe one thing that I would say

17:50

is that you know parties may be in a

17:53

position in negotiations  to give 

17:56

on law or to give on the place of

17:59

arbitration

18:01

and there may be a question so

18:02

strategically what what what what should

18:04

I value more

18:06

if there is this kind of a

18:07

negotiation so

18:09

my own take on this is that the place

18:13

of arbitration the choice the place of

18:15

arbitration is really important

18:18

because if the parties have to rely

18:21

on the courts for assistance during the

18:22

proceeding or if there's a challenge to

18:25

the award at the end

18:26

 the courts become very very important

18:29

in the process whereas the choice of

18:31

governing law it's it also can be very

18:34

important  but in my own experience um

18:38

often disputes are decided on the facts

18:40

I’m sure Regina you have had the same

18:42

experience

18:43

man even where the law is relevant in

18:46

terms of preparing and where it comes up

18:48

in cases

18:49

at least in my part of the world often

18:51

the laws in this part of Asia are based

18:54

on more familiar laws to me

18:56

from Europe and the united states so it

18:59

may not be as difficult to come up to

19:02

speed on small differences between a law

19:06

that an attorney is familiar with and

19:08

the law of the place um

19:10

the law chosen to apply in an

19:12

arbitration that may be less of  of a

19:15

hurdle than being stuck in courts 

19:19

where there's a lot of uncertainty about

19:21

outcome so I guess one strategic

19:24

thing that I might mention is that where

19:26

there is a choice between pressing for a

19:28

particular law or pressing for a

19:30

particular place of arbitration seed of

19:32

arbitration

19:33

that it might be worth thinking

19:35

seriously about the importance of the

19:36

place of arbitration

19:38

okay

19:40

that makes a lot of sense because even

19:41

if you have the you may not be able if

19:43

you choose governing law the courts

19:45

themselves where you're sitting might be

19:47

not applied the same way may not apply

19:49

it fairly

19:50

there could be a lot of factors that go

19:52

on in bias at least if it's in a venue

19:54

that you think you can get a fair shot

19:55

or potentially can learn governing the

19:57

law better might be a better trade-off

19:59

yeah I

20:00

totally agree with that yeah

20:02

interesting so

20:04

what other tips do you have it seems

20:05

like you work a lot when I read your

20:07

profile in China Korea Japan of course

20:10

talk to us a little bit about what

20:12

it's like to I guess I mean what are the

20:14

legal systems there  you know with

20:17

how friendly are they to contracts to

20:19

transparency to different issues

20:21

and law

20:22

yeah good so there's of course a lot

20:24

of  variance between the different

20:27

state the different countries in in Asia

20:30

but I would say for probably for people

20:32

watching this and for your

20:35

your clients I think it's important to

20:37

talk to um

20:39

to local council if at all possible or

20:41

at least to parties who have experience

20:43

in the particular jurisdiction where

20:45

there's a

20:46

business activity that's possible or an

20:48

investment that's possible to get

20:50

specific advice because there is quite a

20:53

lot of variance from

20:55

 for example from Japan to China

20:59

 one I guess one thing I would say is

21:03

even the idea of contract culturally can

21:05

be different as you move from one

21:07

country to the next so the importance

21:10

for example of a huge amount of detail

21:12

in contract  that sort of we have

21:15

as  U.S. trained  lawyers it might it

21:19

might not be that way in in an asian

21:21

jurisdiction where things are a little

21:23

bit more bare bones and a lot goes

21:25

unsaid in the contract so at least in

21:27

terms of contracting i think it's it's

21:30

useful to  to get to speak to someone

21:32

who actually has experience with a

21:34

particular jurisdiction to avoid any any

21:37

potential problems

21:39

that makes sense because we definitely i

21:41

mean often i'm asked if we're charged by

21:43

the minute or the word or you know

21:46

you know we're always concerned

21:47

especially i don't know if it's a common

21:48

law issue because because we deal with

21:50

common laws so we're trying to cover we

21:53

meant this we meant that  just in case

21:55

this you know because we're trying to

21:57

avoid certain precedences

21:58

 in either state or federal depending

22:00

on those circumstances

22:02

so it's a little bit of a it might be it

22:04

might be i might look crazy if i bring

22:06

them one of my paragraphs

22:09

you know maybe

22:11

else so that makes all the sense i mean

22:14

how did you i mean how do  i guess is

22:16

it

22:17

i mean is there

22:18

do most business people there do they

22:20

like in china let's say for instance do

22:22

they use a lot of the court systems or

22:23

do you use the arbitration systems more

22:25

do you have have any knowledge as to

22:26

whether there's a preference

22:29

in the east as to like the use of courts

22:31

versus arbitration

22:32

yeah i think they're they're really too

22:35

it depends on the jurisdiction  so

22:37

singapore when when speaking about east

22:40

asia southeast asia

22:41

has really taken off as a hub for

22:45

international arbitration and that's had

22:47

knock-on effects in in the region so

22:50

companies are increasingly comfortable

22:52

with the idea of arbitrating disputes

22:54

they may have wanted to push towards the

22:56

courts

22:58

previously um

23:00

and the same kind of thing i'm most

23:02

familiar with with japan i will pretend

23:04

to be an expert in all these different

23:05

jurisdictions

23:06

but in japan historically there hasn't

23:09

been a whole lot of use of commercial

23:11

arbitration or investment arbitration

23:14

but recently there have been lots of

23:16

different initiatives to try and promote

23:19

the use of arbitration and they do seem

23:21

to be getting some some traction

23:24

so i think i think it's sort of a mixed

23:26

bag in terms of how much uptake there is

23:29

for arbitration but i think the general

23:32

trend in this part of the world is an

23:35

increase in the number of arbitrations

23:37

and then also an

23:38

increasing interest it seems to me in

23:40

the use of mediation  both as a way of

23:43

avoiding arbitration outright or

23:46

better managing arbitration once the

23:49

arbitration is underway

23:51

okay

23:52

and do you have any other

23:53

recommendations for arbitration or i

23:55

mean i know you don't want to get

23:56

preferences you work with a lot of them

23:58

but do you find any maybe from a

23:59

business point of view a commercial

24:00

point of view are there different

24:02

arbitrational seats organizations

24:06

that are maybe more suited for um

24:08

business transactions or international

24:10

transactions in Asia any specific

24:13

ones you can recommend or there might be

24:15

ones better than the other for certain

24:16

cases or certain situations

24:18

right well I think I think with with

24:21

with Japan there’s the Japan

24:23

commercial arbitration association and

24:26

so Japanese counterparties to contracts

24:28

will be very familiar with this

24:30

institution

24:31

so that might be worth putting on the

24:33

table  it's an institution that's

24:35

undergone a lot of recent change with

24:38

modernization of their rules by

24:40

increasing their staff

24:43

and by becoming increasingly transparent

24:45

24:46

they've taken a lot of steps recently to

24:48

provide information to the public about

24:50

the way they operate and about the the

24:53

the arbitrators who worked on the cases

24:55

in the past so for Japan I think

24:57

that's always an option that's worth

25:00

for Japan related business I think it's

25:02

always an option worth putting on the

25:04

table i think otherwise the obvious

25:06

choice would be

25:08

would be Hong Kong and Singapore

25:10

in

25:11

in particular Singapore, Singapore really

25:13

stands out in this part of the world so

25:15

both the institution the Singapore

25:17

international arbitration center um

25:20

and also, the 

25:23

the platform for arbitration are

25:25

really sophisticated so there are great

25:28

hearing facilities within Singapore

25:31

where arbitration hearings can take

25:33

place the Singapore institution

25:36

is very international so there's a

25:38

governing body that's made up of 

25:40

arbitration practitioners from around

25:43

the world

25:44

 so it truly is an a an

25:47

international organization with a

25:49

very sophisticated secretariat and the

25:52

number of cases that they administer

25:53

keeps increasing and

25:56

within even

25:57

the Asia-Pacific region there's often an

26:01

an instinctive choice of Singapore even

26:04

where there's a local institution like

26:06

like here in Japan or in Korea there may

26:09

be a sort of instinctive preference for

26:11

Singapore because they've just done so

26:12

well with arbitration recently and

26:15

that's not to denigrate the Japanese

26:17

institution of Korean institution which

26:19

are both excellent but i think parties

26:21

just because of for historical reasons

26:23

are often most comfortable with

26:24

Singapore

26:26

and very interesting great tips we love

26:28

it because we don't we won't always know

26:31

that's what we're going to lean on

26:32

people like you for that expertise and

26:34

to help us navigate sometimes and if

26:36

anyone needs any assistance it helps

26:38

people know where to go and maybe where

26:40

to start so some tips for practitioners

26:42

and business people alike because i know

26:44

a lot of business owners too and

26:46

and CEOs and directors and they're

26:48

always looking at what how can we

26:49

improve things or if we want to go into

26:51

a certain area how do we deal with

26:52

certain issues so they're also

26:54

interested in this information as well

26:57

yes yeah

26:59

well it was a pleasure I I think we got

27:01

through our questions sort of um

27:03

you know like this but we got through

27:05

them

27:07

so

27:08

I want to thank you so much for coming

27:09

on would you like anything else with

27:11

the audience or anything else that we

27:13

even thought of about tips or anything

27:16

no i think i think just maybe because we

27:17

began with

27:19

investment treaties I think one thing

27:22

that listeners of this might try

27:24

and keep in mind is that there may be

27:26

treaty protection

27:28

behind their commercial activity even

27:30

that they're not aware about

27:33

and it may actually have relevance to

27:35

how

27:36

investments are structured so it may be

27:38

for example that to take advantage of an

27:40

investment treaty it would make more

27:42

sense to organize the investment through

27:45

a subsidiary in a country that has lots

27:48

of treaties with favorable conditions to

27:50

investors so maybe maybe that's my

27:53

closing thought is that sometimes this

27:55

investment treaty system is under

27:58

utilized or not well known to certain

28:00

investors so I think for from the

28:02

investors perspective it's worth doing a

28:04

little homework to find out what kind of

28:06

treaty protection there is and how the

28:08

investments can be structured to take

28:09

advantage of these treaties

28:12

that's a great tip didn't even think

28:13

about it i didn't even think of that

28:15

that would be

28:16

great that's wonderful that's why we

28:17

have you on

28:19

so

28:20

okay that was a great tip i didn't even

28:22

right when you're saying it my light

28:23

bulb went off and i was like oh

28:26

so wonderful

28:28

thank you very much i thank you so much

28:30

for coming on we appreciate it so much

28:31

Mr. Claxton and I it must be early

28:33

there right early in the morning no it's

28:35

it's a very civilized seven  7 30

28:38

in the morning so it's really it's

28:39

really no problem

28:42

well thank you for

28:43

 being up early with us you know

28:46

this morning

28:47

thank you thank you so much maybe we can

28:49

do it again someday in in in Miami if I

28:52

have the good fortune to be in Miami yes

28:54

let us know if you're going to be here

28:55

we'd love to do it in person and if

28:57

i can get down to Japan we'll do

28:59

something there too I’d love to like we

29:00

talked about it beautiful time of year

29:02

to come indeed you're warmly welcome

29:04

yeah thank you thanks very much you're

29:07

welcome thank you

29:08

okay bye everyone